What is baby observation and why do we do it? - Children and Books PodCast

00:00:00: Music.

00:00:05: Hello and welcome to the children and books podcast today we have

00:00:11: really really interesting guest it's from uni and she's a psychoanalyst and maybe you want to introduce yourself.

00:00:21: I want to tell you that I am here in Munich in my.

00:00:29: A private practice working since 1980s.

00:00:39: Well with patients and.

00:00:42: Yes and today I want to tell you about my training

00:00:49: Mike the Knight raining which involved as well the method of infant observation I think you know this method.

00:01:00: Rachel

00:01:01: perhaps it's a method it is a boiled in London in the Tavistock clinic and it isn't matter according to Esther Bick

00:01:13: who says that it is important to teach this method for child therapist since 1946 and then

00:01:25: was very students trial of this method and then it was

00:01:34: also introduced in the psychoanalytical Institute in London.

00:01:41: I had my infant observation of a little boy called and from 1991

00:01:52: 2 1993 nope old is 13 years old and I don't know about him because this is also a pot what's the method when they

00:02:06: ending of the infant observation is then

00:02:10: is also the relationship and the dislike hero Beautique

00:02:17: ending well sometimes people gets friends and and they.

00:02:24: Used to continue the relationship but I haven't done it and often I think about.

00:02:32: Paul yeah yeah.

00:02:39: I say something more I was just going to acknowledge what an influence that time must have had on your life during the observation but 30 years later you are still thinking about that that infant.

00:02:54: Well it's a very interesting question because the influence was that

00:03:03: wanted to have

00:03:05: second tide myself I have one daughter and I wanted to have a second child and it was not possible and then I had this tight where does boy

00:03:19: imprinting my personal live in my professional life is that I was really,

00:03:27: it wasn't impact to see from birth on

00:03:32: the poll was 18-year a days old when I saw him the first time to see

00:03:39: Bruce on how.

00:03:46: How babies develop and how the relation

00:03:53: between mother and baby and father and baby how this relation develops and is fascinating I have and also

00:04:04: it's a fascinating how very very.

00:04:08: Not quick slow very slow the relationship between the baby and me

00:04:16: me the UPS server because I was not like an aunt or like

00:04:22: mother or like friend of the mother of of the parents I was lit up sober and does that was really.

00:04:34: Very deep emotional.

00:04:38: Drowning yes to look at it was not that I could read.

00:04:49: About the how baby is evolving rowing yes growing I could see it.

00:05:02: How observing ended is really a very very strong emotional impact.

00:05:12: Did you had a task or a question when you went to the meeting.

00:05:20: No

00:05:25: I have no chance no question you attitude is no knowing no desiring no heading questions and if so.

00:05:40: What is experience is also to learn to get the analytical psychotherapeutic attitude and it is of not knowing no memory no Desire going into the

00:05:56: situation the only thing is when they father or the mother has a question of course I try to

00:06:05: to answer it in a good way without justifying something or without.

00:06:15: Telling yes what we have a neutral and neutral.

00:06:25: Attitude to say something to the parents part in a neutral way.

00:06:35: Yeah yeah how can I imagine such a meeting that happened there well.

00:06:46: In the meeting with the baby and the parents.

00:06:50: When you when you go to me to Bailey's all I say hello and then hello the first meeting is that I had to explain what baby observation is all what observation is

00:07:04: and in what the task

00:07:08: my task is to observe that is the first thing of cold and then they have to think about if they want and don't want and so on.

00:07:18: Go into the I'll knock and go into the apartment that was an apartment and then.

00:07:30: Try to get a position in the room where I could observe the baby or the baby in the mother baby of the father and all the baby only the baby.

00:07:42: Yeah yeah what was what was the most memorable experience while observing the.

00:07:50: Babies what was the experience where you where you may be held the moment and said wow what a what a great process.

00:08:01: Well that was when when I.

00:08:06: Had this experience in the observation observation you know this experience when I come in into the room where the baby was lying and the baby was lying there an interest talking at me

00:08:21: and then the baby looked at me the book a book weather was a red.

00:08:30: Ladybug ok it wasn't 80 black and red ladybug and then he look up against at me and this day I had.

00:08:43: A red earring in my.

00:08:47: He looked at my earring and showed me the book lying

00:08:56: showed me the book and wanted to give me the book and I have it

00:09:00: taking it I only was smiling to him and then he looked outside to the tree and the tree in this time had red leaves

00:09:13: and she told me the red leaves the red book and my red herring and that was for me with that most.

00:09:22: Well I remember now this situation of course I remember lots of situation though.

00:09:30: It's since 1993.

00:09:36: Often people ask me is it isn't it's very difficult for the baby over the parents to see you,

00:09:49: look at baby you are we perceive things but you don't react in this sense of reacting like.

00:09:58: Another person would do.

00:10:01: I always say no experience is that the baby has also the possibility to take in an Observer SN good.

00:10:13: Wee-wee saying object in hand in our anal world there yes and in there is also.

00:10:23: Another observation I want to tell you about when it was he was about 2 years old and he came I came in into the room and the mother said to me.

00:10:37: No just said to me come on into my tent.

00:10:45: I the mother said yes everything he,

00:10:48: wants to put into his tent I thought ok I would like to see the present and then he said to me go in.

00:10:59: Into the 10th work and he was pushing me into the 10th and then he closed attend and I was sitting there in the tent and I.

00:11:11: Well I said to him I can't see you yes she said and I then I looked around where there was was coming from and I saw two ice.

00:11:24: And that he showed me that look.

00:11:33: You are my Observer now I am your auto but yeah that's amazing he completely turn the rolls around didn't they.

00:11:43: Interesting.

00:11:47: Wow that's a kinda have got its it must be fascinating because you it's such a unique.

00:11:57: Position to take.

00:12:00: The position of Observer where you don't necessarily react but you just watch because you have.

00:12:12: When you don't get involved in something it so it's a bit like what we learn in meditation isn't it about just observed that the thoughts that come into the mind but react to them and

00:12:26: when we do that,

00:12:28: we see a match we see much more don't we and so I'm just wondering how you can relate that to your.

00:12:38: To your child observation your infant observation.

00:12:42: Yes but this is a ride and it is a.

00:12:50: Observation is not only with eyes and ears it is also voice we say in German you say the 6th Sense

00:12:59: Essex or people with the third eye.

00:13:08: Medication but observing taking in everything you can perceive not only.

00:13:18: See and hear perceive and and this method is that all what you will see if you have to write it down and to record.

00:13:29: And because the second the second part of the infant observation method and third parties to go with your record to a group

00:13:43: baby up service and then we try to understand the meaning of.

00:13:51: Of what we have seen yes.

00:13:58: The gazelle how did your your experiences of of observing infants influence.

00:14:07: Your future understanding and work with with children when you actually had a child in that you were working with in therapy.

00:14:19: So much I went I was in London I always thought it was a very interesting a good

00:14:27: basis when I was in London then I made my training in

00:14:34: I'm tired analysis and I had a patient who was 2 years old when I had to space little patient this

00:14:47: the spaces I heard from

00:14:50: baby observation was so helpful for me to understand what they this little boy was then of course you should from me.

00:15:04: Telling me.

00:15:05: And yes underneath why this infant observation is so important to make it within a familiar family.

00:15:17: There is little boy or little girl

00:15:24: in a healthy environment because when you are done a psychotherapist or psychologist you have more sleep with you work with children who are.

00:15:38: We have some difficulties.

00:15:41: Yeah who don't have son's secure attachments and haven't got that yeah.

00:15:49: Yeah so your experiences were you were able to observe the how

00:15:57: infants make secure attachments and in your work you were able to see how children who didn't have that good good enough experience with with the

00:16:11: the primary carers and how that influence there.

00:16:17: Functioning and their behaviour could you give us an example of how you you can just saw that in your work.

00:16:26: An example by patient.

00:16:35: Well the way have only here I can give you an example you he was about

00:16:41: 2 years old I have seen him from 2 years old

00:16:48: two three-and-a-half years old and he was 2 1/2 years old and he was now accustomed to me and wish

00:17:02: his horses and was lions and with me and enter on and it was a very

00:17:10: good nice session he was very aggressive because that was his symptom that he bites you.

00:17:22: Babies if the mother had another baby not her own another baby in her arms he had picked me too baby.

00:17:31: And well I did was

00:17:35: also he was to me very aggressive of course and wanted also do by my breast and two on but this was a very calm nice session then when I said to him.

00:17:50: So we have now to stop and to tidy up then he said to me no.

00:18:00: Then I said yes we have to stop and tidy up now.

00:18:05: You went you went to the window and there on the window I had also always my clock.

00:18:15: And he took the clock then he put the clock on the floor he went up.

00:18:24: On the little table and

00:18:28: jumped on the clock and then I said to him haha you don't like to stop and you want to destroy the time that was my interpretation

00:18:43: he was looked at me and then you was so afraid that because he could not see that the clock bus.

00:18:52: The second from the second set

00:18:55: yeah he couldn't he looked and then he saw that the battery was outside and so on and then and he came to me and give it to me and asked me as his hair product

00:19:10: also a very big

00:19:12: is that from him and he told me to put this clock again in order this for example an exam and small in yet us one session

00:19:29: yeah lovely example and so-so illustrative so of what he was what he was.

00:19:39: Objecting to which was that you know the session that he didn't want the session to end you've been having a lovely session and so just to destroy time with a way of controlling.

00:19:52: Best passageway to control

00:19:55: control me this was caught him was very important to control me very often confessions yeah one question I remember key.

00:20:10: Well what I think this is a point we are talking about stopping a session I'm very sorry because our time is So Gone.

00:20:23: And I need to stop it now we can destroy all our Henry's and that

00:20:29: tortoise download

00:20:38: yeah thank you so much thank you diesel off for your openness to talk with us about your experience I enjoy your very private experiences with the children ratio for.

00:20:52: Being here and helping us thank you bronco and I say to all who are listening to us bohemian.

00:21:01: I'll be there at 9.